"Language." "Nng, sorry..."
Dec. 7th, 2004 12:33 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
But there is one thing I don't like so much: it's accepted that, when the wee ones are around, all the grown-ups must refrain from using cuss-words. This actually makes me a little annoyed. Actually: rather annoyed, and a little angry, that I must constrain my own behavior for reasons which, when I think them through, seem more harmful than beneficial to the kids in question.
I mean: beyond being a futile exercise (you do plan on sending them to school one day, yes?), it smacks of teaching one's children a known falsehood, setting them up for later disillusionment and confusion. I guess I could see it if we as a group truly abused the words to a nautical degree, but I would argue that we use them as proper language flavoring: salt rather than syrup, if you will. So wouldn't one want to expose their kids to smart grown-ups speaking naturally, rather than teach them the fiction that the words simply don't exist, and are never said by anyone?
Naturally, I say all this as a non-parent, and further one who can't imagine changing this status, not without a rather severe personal mental rearrangement, so maybe there's something magical I'm not getting. Furthermore, were I ever put in charge of a child, I would (barring, again, a drastic change of personal philosophy) teach them during their first sentient Xmas the truth about both Santa Claus and Jesus Christ, and I don't know how different this strategy would be from even the new parents in my current crowd.
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Date: 2004-12-07 05:35 pm (UTC)As a data point, since I grew up Jewish in a very non-Jewish locale (at the time, what's happened since is a bit odd), my parents did sit me down my first "sentient" Christmas and explain the whole Santa Claus thing to me. They also warned me that my friends wouldn't maybe be so eager for me to spoil things for them, so I should keep it to myself. So far, I've grown up to be an intellectually snobby atheist who hates people. Your mileage may vary. :)
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Date: 2004-12-07 05:51 pm (UTC)But my argument is that this blanket policy is teaching kids that there are never good places to swear, which just ain't true. I understand how tricky this is, because a kid actually has to be pretty old before understanding of linguistic subtlety can settle in. Until then I'd imagine a kid with knowledge of a few zingers will experiment at inserting them into different situations and seeing the reactions these get, often to the embarrassment of the parents.
Counterargument: the parents shouldn't feel embarrassed at their kids learning how to speak properly (though they should absolutely take corrective action at mistakes like this).
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Date: 2004-12-07 06:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-07 06:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-07 06:20 pm (UTC)My general thought on the matter, as a parent of one of those kids, is that if language is appropriate for the venue in general, then don't edit yourself because a kid is there. If it becomes apparent to me that the venue is not appropriate for my daughter, (say the traditional valentine's event at the freaks), I will remove her from the situation.
Now, that said, don't you dare ruin Santa Clause! :)
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Date: 2004-12-07 06:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-07 06:30 pm (UTC)That said, it is mostly past her bedtime anyway and cranky miserable baby is no fun. Plus...by February...she might be old enough for us to attempt to get one of these mythical baby sitters I've heard about! :)
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Date: 2004-12-07 07:20 pm (UTC)"Interesting tensions", though, yes. I appreciate the insight.
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Date: 2004-12-07 07:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-07 09:32 pm (UTC)On the other hand, I don't really care about words having power, so the idea of not saying certain words "for the children's sake" seems archaic to me. So I think I agree with
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Date: 2004-12-07 09:50 pm (UTC)On the other extreme, I enjoy the freedom of using naughty words, even mild ones, as very occasional salt in conversation; I actually don't think this makes me look bad, no more than I think cymbal crashes always ruin a musical score. In a kids-included situation, though, each occurrence makes me feel suddenly confused as to whether or not I crossed the line. And I feel the same if I veer out of the way with some silly stand-in word.
I guess with practice I could remove swearing from my used vocabulary entirely and make the whole point moot, but I do not foresee myself putting the practice in.
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Date: 2004-12-07 10:01 pm (UTC)i am in the car with my friend Elizabeth. she gets a call on her cellphone from her kid's first grade teacher. apparently, arthur (the kid) was struck by some amazing science thing they learned in class that he said "huh. ain't that a motherfucker." we think this is hilarious, the teacher doesn't.
this not a phrase which his parents or any of us adults who spent a lot of time around him have ever uttered (but since then, we say it a lot), but obviously he heard it someplace and knew the context in which to use it.
kids pick up stuff. that's the bottom line. it could be from you, it might be from someone else. i say go with what you are comfortable within each situation. in the case of the "swear jar" scenerio where the kid charges a quarter for every swear word, start a tab.
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Date: 2004-12-07 10:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-12-07 10:46 pm (UTC)most of the reason why i like to swear is because of the sounds. "fuck" is satisfying to say when your are angry because the F and the K sound are harsh. same with combos like "christ on a cracker." when saying "beaver" the B part gets the hard stomp of the accent. it's easy to interchange these words around kids, because the sounds are similar even if the words are different. fudge, criminy crackers, bother etc.
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Date: 2004-12-07 10:53 pm (UTC)as a parent
Date: 2004-12-07 10:02 pm (UTC)I don't swear much. I *can* and do swear, when needed. I believe that if you use swear words too often, they loose their impact and power. I know some folks that swear all of the time, and I don't really like it. It just makes them seem illiterate and dumb. If you can't find a way to express your anger to someone other than saying "fucking fuck fuck fuck" then maybe you have an issue. It doesn't offend me on moral grounds or anything like that.
Because I don't swear much, when I drop a careful placed F-bomb into a conversation (like if I am reprimanding someone), they really go 'wow, he is really upset about that", and it makes a bigger impact.
I have known guys coming from armed services backgrounds that literally had to make up new swear words and combinations all of the time, because the normal ones had lost their effectiveness.
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Date: 2004-12-07 10:24 pm (UTC)Is that where "asshat" and "cockfarmer" came from?
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Date: 2004-12-07 10:34 pm (UTC)I knew a guy who had used words like "assjack", "dickweed"... and many others that I have forgotten. He could swear in a most impressive manner. He could go on for fully 30 seconds, with only a single noun being used. Of course, he did tech support. But he was always good in front of customers.