"Language." "Nng, sorry..."

[prog]

So babies & toddlers are starting to inevitably spread through my social group, and are being brought to gaming events, which serve as the mead-halls for my social life. This much is fine. I like kids OK, and I like smart kids a lot, so I honestly look forward to this crop getting old enough to think and talk, so I can start feeling jealous for their awesome childhoods within a whole crowd of delightfully immature "aunts" & "uncles". (Versus that of poor baby jmac, raised by friendless oldsters and sent to bed at 6pm every night. Alas!)

But there is one thing I don't like so much: it's accepted that, when the wee ones are around, all the grown-ups must refrain from using cuss-words. This actually makes me a little annoyed. Actually: rather annoyed, and a little angry, that I must constrain my own behavior for reasons which, when I think them through, seem more harmful than beneficial to the kids in question.

I mean: beyond being a futile exercise (you do plan on sending them to school one day, yes?), it smacks of teaching one's children a known falsehood, setting them up for later disillusionment and confusion. I guess I could see it if we as a group truly abused the words to a nautical degree, but I would argue that we use them as proper language flavoring: salt rather than syrup, if you will. So wouldn't one want to expose their kids to smart grown-ups speaking naturally, rather than teach them the fiction that the words simply don't exist, and are never said by anyone?

Naturally, I say all this as a non-parent, and further one who can't imagine changing this status, not without a rather severe personal mental rearrangement, so maybe there's something magical I'm not getting. Furthermore, were I ever put in charge of a child, I would (barring, again, a drastic change of personal philosophy) teach them during their first sentient Xmas the truth about both Santa Claus and Jesus Christ, and I don't know how different this strategy would be from even the new parents in my current crowd.

Comments

[ruthling.livejournal.com]

I don't have strong opinions on the language issue. I think I swear too much sometimes and it makes me look stupid, petty and inarticulate, so I sometimes appreciate that little nudge of maybe this isn't the place. Its good exercise in situational behavior, which *is* something people need to teach to kids. I don't think finding out that there are good and bad places to swear is any worse than finding out there are good and bad places to scream and run around, and if we can't get that, it's tough to teach by example.

As a data point, since I grew up Jewish in a very non-Jewish locale (at the time, what's happened since is a bit odd), my parents did sit me down my first "sentient" Christmas and explain the whole Santa Claus thing to me. They also warned me that my friends wouldn't maybe be so eager for me to spoil things for them, so I should keep it to myself. So far, I've grown up to be an intellectually snobby atheist who hates people. Your mileage may vary. :)

[prog.livejournal.com]

I don't think finding out that there are good and bad places to swear is any worse than finding out there are good and bad places to scream and run around, and if we can't get that, it's tough to teach by example.

But my argument is that this blanket policy is teaching kids that there are never good places to swear, which just ain't true. I understand how tricky this is, because a kid actually has to be pretty old before understanding of linguistic subtlety can settle in. Until then I'd imagine a kid with knowledge of a few zingers will experiment at inserting them into different situations and seeing the reactions these get, often to the embarrassment of the parents.

Counterargument: the parents shouldn't feel embarrassed at their kids learning how to speak properly (though they should absolutely take corrective action at mistakes like this).

[ruthling.livejournal.com]

Most kids learn the appropriate times to swear: while doing a home improvement project, watching professional sports or politics, etc. Better to learn some stuff at home. I'm not gonna toilet train my friends' kids either.

[jadelennox]

Gotta agree with ruthling. For me, it's less about the kids, and more about me taking advantage of the opportunity to train myself out of habit that I feel makes me look illiterate.

[avon.livejournal.com]

A thread along this line came across a list I am on. Like the social circle in question, kids are beginning to infuse some of the social situations making for some interesting tensions.

My general thought on the matter, as a parent of one of those kids, is that if language is appropriate for the venue in general, then don't edit yourself because a kid is there. If it becomes apparent to me that the venue is not appropriate for my daughter, (say the traditional valentine's event at the freaks), I will remove her from the situation.

Now, that said, don't you dare ruin Santa Clause! :)

[jadelennox]

you aren't bringing her to the party? What if we promise not to swear?

[avon.livejournal.com]

heh. We might be arrested. :p

That said, it is mostly past her bedtime anyway and cranky miserable baby is no fun. Plus...by February...she might be old enough for us to attempt to get one of these mythical baby sitters I've heard about! :)

[prog.livejournal.com]

I'll keep my mouth shut. :) Seriously, I fully support a parent's desire -- duty, even -- to act as gatekeeper to what the kid can experience and know, and don't pretend to know better than, y'know, actual parents, and you can expect me to be well-behaved too!

"Interesting tensions", though, yes. I appreciate the insight.

[aspartaimee.livejournal.com]

i swear like a trucker. i find it perfectly reasonable, however, to watch my mouth in front of my friends' kids, especially the wee-er ones. while i know they will learn to swear eventually (as we all do), i prefer them not learning it from me.

[dougo.livejournal.com]

Taboos are weird. I think the whole reason to make certain words taboo is to preserve their power, so that saying "fuck" means "my feelings are intense enough that I'm breaking a taboo to express them". I.e. if cuss words are outlawed then only outlaws will cuss. Or something like that.

On the other hand, I don't really care about words having power, so the idea of not saying certain words "for the children's sake" seems archaic to me. So I think I agree with avon that it's up to the parent to just avoid "inappropriate" gatherings rather than imposing a G rating onto all gatherings.

[prog.livejournal.com]

There are also different things going on here. Yelling FUCK when something goes wrong is losing your temper, and setting a bad example even apart from the cussing.

On the other extreme, I enjoy the freedom of using naughty words, even mild ones, as very occasional salt in conversation; I actually don't think this makes me look bad, no more than I think cymbal crashes always ruin a musical score. In a kids-included situation, though, each occurrence makes me feel suddenly confused as to whether or not I crossed the line. And I feel the same if I veer out of the way with some silly stand-in word.

I guess with practice I could remove swearing from my used vocabulary entirely and make the whole point moot, but I do not foresee myself putting the practice in.

[aspartaimee.livejournal.com]

anecdotally, here's something for you.

i am in the car with my friend Elizabeth. she gets a call on her cellphone from her kid's first grade teacher. apparently, arthur (the kid) was struck by some amazing science thing they learned in class that he said "huh. ain't that a motherfucker." we think this is hilarious, the teacher doesn't.

this not a phrase which his parents or any of us adults who spent a lot of time around him have ever uttered (but since then, we say it a lot), but obviously he heard it someplace and knew the context in which to use it.

kids pick up stuff. that's the bottom line. it could be from you, it might be from someone else. i say go with what you are comfortable within each situation. in the case of the "swear jar" scenerio where the kid charges a quarter for every swear word, start a tab.

[dougo.livejournal.com]

I guess what bothers me is that the people admonishing "Language!" would probably not care at all if you yelled "Fudge!" or "Mother jumper!". It's really just about that particular series of consonants and vowels that they don't want their children to hear (or don't want to hear themselves).

[aspartaimee.livejournal.com]

this is very true.

most of the reason why i like to swear is because of the sounds. "fuck" is satisfying to say when your are angry because the F and the K sound are harsh. same with combos like "christ on a cracker." when saying "beaver" the B part gets the hard stomp of the accent. it's easy to interchange these words around kids, because the sounds are similar even if the words are different. fudge, criminy crackers, bother etc.

[prog.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I like to say "Rot! Rubbish!! Figs!!!" in that order. Because it's fun, and because I will marry the first person who gets the reference. (Unless I am misremembering it, which would be a shame.)

as a parent

[jtroutman.livejournal.com]

well, it is more of a logistical problem. if you ever have the experience of a small child (say 2 years old) running around chanting "fucking asshole!" over and over again in a sing-song voice, you can't really understand. The child did not really know what it meant, but that had heard it, and they were repeating it. And that can lead to some interesting situations if you are taking said child out in public.

I don't swear much. I *can* and do swear, when needed. I believe that if you use swear words too often, they loose their impact and power. I know some folks that swear all of the time, and I don't really like it. It just makes them seem illiterate and dumb. If you can't find a way to express your anger to someone other than saying "fucking fuck fuck fuck" then maybe you have an issue. It doesn't offend me on moral grounds or anything like that.

Because I don't swear much, when I drop a careful placed F-bomb into a conversation (like if I am reprimanding someone), they really go 'wow, he is really upset about that", and it makes a bigger impact.

I have known guys coming from armed services backgrounds that literally had to make up new swear words and combinations all of the time, because the normal ones had lost their effectiveness.

[dougo.livejournal.com]

had to make up new swear words and combinations

Is that where "asshat" and "cockfarmer" came from?

[jtroutman.livejournal.com]

yes... had not heard of "cockfarmer" before.. that is a good one.

I knew a guy who had used words like "assjack", "dickweed"... and many others that I have forgotten. He could swear in a most impressive manner. He could go on for fully 30 seconds, with only a single noun being used. Of course, he did tech support. But he was always good in front of customers.